Curse

The Herbalizer · Sep 09, 2006, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilderness

Remember, this isn't about what's the sensible thing to do, it's about how the sales actually happen with a lot of people assuming only 20/20 +30 is perfect.

O yeah, I should read stuff better. The amount of sundering I see these days is shocking.

Russell.Crowe · Sep 09, 2006, 04:10 PM // 16:10

This thread is 100% opinion based on prior experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

No it's not.

Okay Mr. Bigshot, how about backing your statement with proof(this was regarding the 20/20 not being good for spiking).

KoalaMeatPie · Sep 09, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Not adding any insight, but somebody tried to sell me a 5-20 req 10 Choas Axe with a +30 mod for 40k.

MMMM don't think so.

Spallenzani · Sep 09, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Translation: I don't care what anyone can prove, I'm just going to state something and it's right no matter what. Glad you feel that way, but it makes for crappy discussion.

Please don't be an ass. I have repeatedly made it clear that my intuition may very well be wrong; all I have claimed is that this thread has, prior to your post, provided no evidence that costly upgrades are a waste of money.

One minor criticism of your chosen sample: PvE players generally prefer swords and axes over hammers. This might bias the results in favor of an item that - compared to swords and axes - appeals more to PvP players. Since PvP players are more likely than PvE players to recognize that Sundering is not that important and that the difference between +29 and +30 health is negligible, they are also more likely to pay for just the skin and not care as much about the mods. (Not to mention the fact that hammer mods are generally cheaper than the same mods for swords and axes).

HawkofStorms · Sep 09, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell.Crowe

This thread is 100% opinion based on prior experience.

Okay Mr. Bigshot, how about backing your statement with proof(this was regarding the 20/20 not being good for spiking).

Savio is a big shot on these forums and in game.

More on topic, the way I understand it sundering only triggers on the the base damage of the weapon (ie the 15-22 on a sword, etc), not on the attack skill's damage. So, you are getting around 3-5 extra damage once every 5 attacks (it may even be attack skills I'm not 100% certain).
Vampiric = 3 extra damage per attack. Do research.

Thus, sundering = noobish.

Russell.Crowe · Sep 10, 2006, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Savio is a big shot on these forums and in game.

More on topic, the way I understand it sundering only triggers on the the base damage of the weapon (ie the 15-22 on a sword, etc), not on the attack skill's damage. So, you are getting around 3-5 extra damage once every 5 attacks (it may even be attack skills I'm not 100% certain).
Vampiric = 3 extra damage per attack. Do research.

Thus, sundering = noobish.

I assure you the sundering adds more than 3-5 damage. There is no doubt the Vamp. is more constant than a sundering, and better with certain weapons(a bow for instance), but with a sword or an axe I would prefer the sundering mod for a spike.

Avarre · Sep 10, 2006, 03:30 AM // 03:30

I believe vamp was found to deal more damage over the same number of attacks than sundering, on all armor levels up to and including 100AL, on all weapons. And since you're going to have to spike a multiple number of times, and you imply that the damage from the weapon mod will significantly help you, overall vamp gives you stronger, more consistant spikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fender (In another thread, as well as on Team-iQ)

posted this in another thread, but it is probably worth repeating here, with a little more information.

Against an AL 60 target w/ perfect vamp your damage increases over base by:
sword 8.8%
axe 8.4%
hammer 9.7%
bow 12.4%

Against an AL 60 target w/ perfect 20/20 sundering your damage increases over base by 4.6% for all weapons. Much better than the 1.1% a 10/10 sundering mod would get, but still well below vamp.

vamp vs AL 70
sword 10.4%
axe 10.0%
hammer 11.6%
bow 14.7%

sundering 20/20 vs AL 70 compared to base all weapons 6.4% (10/10 = 1.3%)

vamp vs AL 100
sword 17.6%
axe 16.9%
hammer 19.4%
bow 24.8%

sundering 20/20 vs AL 100 compared to base all weapons 8.3% (10/10 = 1.9%)

lyra_song · Sep 10, 2006, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Doo bee doo bee....

Lets bring the proof in to the pudding.

Axes have a damage range of 6-28
customized and the 15%^50 it brings the max damage to 31 (wild blow)
Sundering +20% increases the damage of a critical hit to 44 vs a 100 AL target
Thats a REALLY high number. But...is it really that useful? Lets try and find out!

Heres the attributes:

Heres the axes:

Now heres the data.

Sundering Axe with no IAS, vs a 100 AL target, heres the damage play by play:
16
20
22
10
12
23
11
13
21
14
20
11
7
8
13
21
6
12
44
18
12
7
15
19
11
11
9
7
31
31
19

after 31 swings (i chose 31 cause thats the critical hit amount ;P) the total damage vs 100 AL is: 494

Average damage = 15.93

Now for 3/1 Vamp, no IAS vs 100 AL target:
13
14
8
14
11
8
20
19
31
17
8
13
17
10
12
17
22
21
13
31
20
6
7
5
31
9
20
14
6
14
5

= 457

now add the 3 armor ignoring damage per swing (3 x 31 =93)

Total damage = 550

Average damage: 17.74

--------------------

Ok so thats with just no IAS, and no attack skills.

Lets bring Wild Blow into the picture.

Wild Blow does 31 damage. When the sundering kicks in you do 44 damage. With vamp, it does a constant 34 damage.

44 Thats an additional 13 damage. But at the same time, its 1 out of every 5.

So we do 5 critical strikes. Chance says we should get at least +13 on one of them. We divide 13 into 5, to spread across all 5 strikes. thats 2.6 additional per critical strike

and IF we get 1 crit + penetration in there. Theres also a chance that all 5 swings will be 44 (remember this is percentages).

Meanwhile Vamp is consistently +3

If you are willing to gamble on that type of reliability, then go ahead. But i'd rather pick consistently higher DPS, higher consistent spike damage.

^.^

Russell.Crowe · Sep 10, 2006, 04:53 AM // 04:53

The thing you fail to realize is that a spike is meant to kill a target. You want have the chance to maximize the damage of your spike, in which case the sundering would be better for something such as an axe or a sword because the vamp. is only 3/1 and you are generally chaining only 2-3 attack skills for your spike. A hammer on the other hand it would probably be better to use a vamp. because of the high ratio, 5/1, and you generally chain 3-4 skills together with it.

At least this is the way I see it. I would like to maximize the damage of a single spike if possible.

lyra_song · Sep 10, 2006, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell.Crowe

The thing you fail to realize is that a spike is meant to kill a target. You want have the chance to maximize the damage of your spike, in which case the sundering would be better for something such as an axe or a sword because the vamp. is only 3/1 and you are generally chaining only 2-3 attack skills for your spike. A hammer on the other hand it would probably be better to use a vamp. because of the high ratio, 5/1, and you generally chain 3-4 skills together with it.

At least this is the way I see it. I would like to maximize the damage of a single spike if possible.

Heres how i see it. Everything has a price.

Sundering gives you a higher chance of damage....but your price is inconsistency.

Vamp gives you consistent higher damage...but your price is degen.

Choose which price youd like to pay.

Y.T. · Sep 10, 2006, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spallenzani

Um, you do realize that if Sundering is crap, Furious is super crap?

well i saw alot of ppl mentioning that furious is crap in lots and lots of diff treads, but somehow i never can get the answer on the simple question - why is it so crappy? i mean lets say i dont want to use zealous and i'm not into sundering, and i dont want any elem damage mods for some reasons (say rangers/eles around) whats left? vamp and furious. now if the build is adren-based, isnt it logical to use furious just for the hell of it? what makes it so crappy?

and i absolutely agree that sellers should stop adding expencive upgrades to random weapons and then ask crazy prices for them cos imho if smbdy wants to buy gold weapon, not the perfect and (quite often) cheaper green item, they want to mod their weapons the way they see fit. f/ex i had HUGE problems equipping my monky - i wanted 3 weapons with +5e, so i can mod them with +ho and +armor and +to ench mods. 3rd was easy to get - totem axe ftw, it looks great 2. but then i spend quite a few hrs just trying to find any +5e swords/axes w/o the 20/20 +30hp mods, cos i alrdy had +30hp and +5armor mods in storage, why should i pay for the mod that i'm not going to keep or got alrdy? finally i found smbdy who sold me unmodded +5e sword and +5 axe - i wanted smth nice-looking, not the usual katana/cleaver skins.
moral of the story - seller of unmodded weapons saved his/her time and sold items fast and got the price he/she wanted, while 20/20 +30hp fans r still there, asking for 100k and 15ecto..........................

CalypsoX · Sep 10, 2006, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Y.T.

well i saw alot of ppl mentioning that furious is crap in lots and lots of diff treads, but somehow i never can get the answer on the simple question - why is it so crappy? i mean lets say i dont want to use zealous and i'm not into sundering, and i dont want any elem damage mods for some reasons (say rangers/eles around) whats left? vamp and furious. now if the build is adren-based, isnt it logical to use furious just for the hell of it? what makes it so crappy?

Bad example on two fronts. First, you've effectively eliminated most of the other mods from the decision. If you don't have a choice, your only option is to pick the one left. Doesn't mean that option is any good when you do have a choice. Second, you're comparing vamp and furious - if you're going for damage, why would you pick furious over vamp?

Y.T. · Sep 10, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalypsoX

Bad example on two fronts. First, you've effectively eliminated most of the other mods from the decision. If you don't have a choice, your only option is to pick the one left. Doesn't mean that option is any good when you do have a choice. Second, you're comparing vamp and furious - if you're going for damage, why would you pick furious over vamp?

i'm just asking, cos i'm a little bit confused. i wasnt able to find any math proving that furious is really that bad compare to another mods, and if smbdy did the math alrdy its easier to ask than to do it all over again right... so - do u think that i should choose vamp even if i'm going to spam low-cost adren skills like quivering blade and such? another thing that i'm not so sure about is elem mod. certain monters and whats more important - bosses in pve r sensitive to cold or fire damage, and it's a good idea to use icy weapon if we have a necro with spinal shivers in our team, also it looks like elem dam is supposed to do more damage to war after the shield nerf. but are elem mods really better than vamp or furious or even sundering mods? my war's using same +30hp -5/20 shield and i havent noticed that much of a diff, not sure why, mb thats where sentinels armor helps...

Malice Black · Sep 10, 2006, 11:20 PM // 23:20

this debate will never be settled so why bother?

i say...play your way and let others play their way, looking into the mathematical equations is just taking it too far imo it is just a game after all

Vahn Roi · Sep 10, 2006, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admins Bane

this debate will never be settled so why bother?

i say...play your way and let others play their way, looking into the mathematical equations is just taking it too far imo it is just a game after all

It's all about proving you're right and the other guy is wrong.

Malice Black · Sep 10, 2006, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Ppl blasting out mathematical equations for something that in truth is petty at best is stupid.

The dmg difference is too insignificant it hardly worth the bother

makosi · Sep 10, 2006, 11:52 PM // 23:52

The difference between the price, however, is significant. Sundering axe hafts are 30k+ more than vampiric hafts in the current market. -1 regen is a problem? That's like Parasitic Bond posing a threat

Besides, you're stealing 3hp per hit so you gain more than what is lost while you attack.

Akhilleus · Sep 11, 2006, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

There is evidence that people are selling 20/20 +30 weapons for obscene prices, but evidence of them sold for those prices is lacking. Show some proof that weapons with perfect mods are consistently sold for more than the weapons and mods sold separately.

i was (quite literally) the person who invented this strategy on a mass scale...i made millions doing it, however, this was a long time ago, people have wisened up, and its now rather difficult to do.
in general modding a weapon with a +30 will not add additional value to the weapon. if the weapons is a good skin with a perfect damage mod and a decent requirement (ie a weapon worth keeping) the modification should retain its market value. on a crap weapon, the mod can often be individually worth more than the entire weapon, since noone is going to want a 13>50 r13 10-21 dmg sword...they'd rather have its perfect +30 hp mod.
what, then, is the advantage of adding on a perfect modification these days?
A: in general, it will sell faster, not for more money...but faster.
the downside si that if you cant sell it, you can lose money spent on the mods. as for what cosntitutes a perfect mod; about the dumbest thing you can do to a weapon in the 100-300k range is leave it with a 2:1 vampiric and +5 vs elemental mods...non-max stat mods kill decent weapons, most of the time. extremely rare weapons will sell regardless of the addon mods as the people who buy them are rich enough to not care...and crap weapons dont sell to anyone except people who couldnt afford the mods to begin with...but for middle-ground stuff, throw a max mod on it...a zealous, a +5 defensive, a +30hp...anything...so long as its not a totally useless mod. yes, some people prefer a "base" weapon, as unmodded as can be...but most, do not.
and anyone can argue with me as much as they want, but i can guarantee you noone here has done more weapon remodeling than i have for the purpose of reselling, i speak out of personal experiences incurred in hundreds, if not thousands of item trades. but the fact remains; once upon a time you could buy a "clean" weapon for 100-200k, 2 perfect mods for 80-100k each, mod the weapon and sellt he whole package for 10-30% more than what you paid. why? because perfect mods and weapons were such uncommon drops that people would be willing to pay extra for the whole thing pre-modded rather than waiting in trade channels to buy each piece seperatly over the period of a week. this is why a year ago i REGULARLY had 50+ perfect mods on me of varying different types for varying different weapons; along with numerous "base" weapons on stock, ready to make a "customized" (whatever mods they wanted) weapon for whoever wanted one. nowadays, you cant really make a profit form this anymore, but it DOES help you sell your items much faster...and time is money.

Malice Black · Sep 11, 2006, 03:09 PM // 15:09

nice essay AKH and a certain amount of modesty as always

adding mods to tell faster is one thing but i found selling below current market value by 10-20% was alot faster

some ppl just dont realise just because everyone else sells for 150k means you have to..i'd sell for 120-130 then move on to the next sell..the guys selling for 150k were still spamming hours later, i would have sold everything by that time and still be well within a 50% profit margin.

the goold old days *memories*